IMMANUEL WILKINS: ETERNAL FRIENDS, FAITH AND SOUNDS

“A friend loves at all times,

and a brother is born for adversity”

Proverbs 17:17

Some friendships are superficial,

but there is a friend who is closer than a brother

Proverbs 18:24

ONE OF THE MOST TOXIC ASPECTS OF LIFE IN AMERICA IS THE DEARTH OF CLOSE FRIENDSHIPS. OUR FOCUS ON “SELF-FULFILLMENT” HAS RESULTED IN A COLLECTION OF SOLITARY FIGURES, DESPERATE FOR COMMUNITY.

ALTO SAXIST IMMANUEL WILKINS HAS FOUND THAT FELLOWSHIP THROUGH HIS CHURCH AND MUSIC. HIS LONG-TERM FRIENDSHIP WITH VIBIST JOEL ROSS HAS TAKEN  HIM ON A MUSICAL AS WELL AS SPIRITUAL TREK. WITH ROSS, WILKINS CONTRIBUTED TO ROSS’ EARLY ALBUMS, BOTH MUSICALLY AND THEMATICALLY.

SINCE LEAVING ROSS, WILKINS HAS CREATED HIS OWN COMMUNITY OF MUSICIANS., MOST RECENTLY RECORDING A THREE ALBUM SET OF MUSIC AT THE FAMED VILLAGE VANGUARD WITH HIS TEAM OF MICAH THOMAS, RYOMA TAKENAGA AND KWEKU SUMBRY.

I RECENTLY CAUGHT THIS BAND AT THE BLUE NOTE LOS ANGELES, AND WAS THROUGHOULY IMPRESSED BY THE ESP-LIKE COMMUNICATION, AS WELL AS THE WIDTH, DEPTH AND BREATH OF WILKINS’ PLAYING AND COMPOSING SKILLS

WE RECENTLY HAD A CHAT WITH IMMANUEL, WHO WAS MORE THAN WILLING TO SHARE IS LIFE, FAITH AND MUSICAL WORLDVIEWS

YOU, LIKE YOUR BUDDY JOEL ROSS, HAVE PUT OUT ALBUMS WITH CHRISTIAN-THEMED MESSAGES. ARE YOUR BAND MATES ON THE SAME PAGE, OR DO THEY JUST SEE IT AS SIMPLY A MUSICAL STATEMENT?

My bandmates are not all necessarily Christian, but I think we all have a general sense of a spiritual practice that we all deal with, both personally and singularly.

I think therefore that they are able to come at the work in their own unique ways and find a way to relate to God and to their own spiritual practice through the music. That’s the beautiful thing about it.

I think  that the beautiful thing about music without words, or that functions abstractly is has an openness, and an opening for all to come into it and go through it together.

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“I think  that the beautiful thing about music without words, or that functions abstractly is has an openness, and an opening for all to come into it and go through it together”

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WHEN YOU PLAY SONGS THAT HAVE A MESSAGE, ARE YOUR PEERS OR AUDIENCE INTRIGUED BY YOUR CONVICTIONS, OR DO THEY JUST THINK “WHATEVER”?

I think that people are generally intrigued

I think I’m more interested than they are with  the practice of things; the project and the experiment is the most important aspect of the process

In a lot of instances, I’ll talk about the work, and discuss it in depth. But I don’t think it’s 100%   necessary to enter into a space where you can receive or understand the music.

You can enter through the spiritual source or you can enter through the sonic; whichever feels right.

YOU WORKED WITH JOEL FOR A LONG TIME. HOW DID YOU FIRST MEET, AND WHAT WAS YOUR CONNECTION FOR THE FRIENDSHIP?

We first met at a Disney’s jam session that he was running. We met our first  year in NYC in 2015 or 16. He’s been my best friend ever since

He already had his band Good Vibes, and he hit me up to do a session at The New School. We did that session and from then on just started playing together.

We did our first gig at the Jazz Gallery, and formed a great friendship and musical relationship.

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“You can enter through the spiritual source or you can enter through the sonic; whichever feels right”

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I SAW YOU TWO TOGETHER IN LA AT BLUE WHALE. HOW DO YOU KNOW WHEN IT’S TIME TO GO OUT ON YOUR OWN AFTER SUCH A LONG TIME TOGETHER?

Great question.

When I released my first record (Omega), I was still trying to make it work with the band.

It was really just a logistical thing; I could keep making a lot of his dates anymore because I wanted to prioritize my own band and project.

On a philosophical level, I think you always have aspirations of building up your own band. I’ve had my own band since I was in high school, but I got more serious about it after seeing Joel’s band and being in it. I saw how powerful it was to work with the same people all of the time; I wanted that for myself.

I had a body of work that I had been working on for a long time, and I wanted to build that with people who were committed to me and my music.

I think that seeing the beauty in Joel’s band, and what was possible through continued and long term collaboration was really helpful for me to start thinking about my own practice

WAS THAT THERE ANYHING WITH YOUR TIME WITH JOEL ROSS THAT YOU LEARNED THAT YOU’VE CARRIED OVER TO YOUR OWN BAND?

Everything about how to run a band.

And how important it is to make music with your peers. The connection that we had built together, even just as a front line, was something that permeated throughout the New York scene for a long time

Whether it was on Joel’s band, or when we were the front line in Ben Wolf’s band or with Harish **Raghavendra. There were so many people that specifically called for me and Joel together in the front line.

You can enter through the spiritual source or you can enter through the sonic; whichever feels right.

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:”You can enter through the spiritual source or you can enter through the sonic; whichever feels right”

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ON THE OTHER HAND, WHEN YOU LEFT JOEL’S BAND, DID YOU THINK TO YOURSELF, “I’M NEVER GOING TO DO THAT ONE SONG LEADING INTO ANOTHER THING AGAIN”?

(laughs) Yes, actually!

I didn’t “leave the band” proper; it was just that I wasn’t able to make a lot of the gigs. I was still doing some of them, but there was a moment where I hadn’t played with the band for a long period of time, and when I came back I realized “Man, you’ve really got to know this repertoire in a super intimate way to blend those songs together.” I was deeply out of practice with them. I was feeling the pains of not playing with them

 

WHAT WERE YOU SPECIFICALLY LOOKING FOR IN YOUR OWN BAND?

I was looking for a group of musicians that I felt comfortable with, and that there was an ease in the creative work. I wanted people who had a certain amount of longevity built in. I felt that they were committed to my vision, but that I was committed to what I was seeing for the four of us.

It was pretty open-ended in the beginning in terms of my ideation about it. The path forward became very clear as we started working and playing together more. The connections started to feel more palpable and fruitful

What encouraged me to book gigs and make it really happen was just the fact that I believed so much in the music that we were making as a unit. It motivated me to put together opportunities

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“What encouraged me to book gigs and make it really happen was just the fact that I believed so much in the music that we were making as a unit. It motivated me to put together opportunities”

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IN PUTTING A BAND TOGETHER , WHICH ONE COMES FIRST, PERSONAL COMMUNITY OR MUSICAL CHOPS AND VISION?

For me, what comes first is musical chops and vision. But what actually sustains an ensemble is that friendship

The first thing is “are we speaking the same language, and can we execute our vision as  musicians and deal on a high level?”

But when I think about touring and the life that we’re living now, I wouldn’t be able to do this if I didn’t love the people that I was touring with; they’re my family

YOUR LATEST ALBUMS IS A “LIVE” ALBUM. HOW LONG DID IT TAKE BEFORE YOU FELT LIKE “WE’RE A TEAM, AND WE’RE NOT JUST PLAYING THE TUNES”?

I felt that way after the first year playing together. We started in 2017, and we felt we had something enmeshed.

Live recordings have always kind of scared me. That’s why it’s taken me such a long time. We’ve been together for about 9 years as a band. It’s taken us awhile to even attack the “live” recording because it’s such real capturing of our ensemble

I wanted to make sure that we were playing at a certain level. And, since the Village Vanguard is such a hallowed place, with so many historical albums being recorded there, I wanted to make sure that we were in a position where we could make a product that could stand up to the canon, and be worthy of being in the canon

I didn’t just want to make a “Live At The Vanguard” album when we weren’t at a really good place as an ensemble. That took 8 years of work and diligence until I finally felt that we were at a place where we could document what we now sound like in a real way.

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“For me, what comes first is musical chops and vision. But what actually sustains an ensemble is that friendship”

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OK, SO THAT’S FOR THE BAND. BUT WHEN DID YOU FINALLY FEEL THAT YOU SOUNDED LIKE YOU WANTED TO BE?

Good question. I don’t know

With identity in the music, it’s interesting because I’ve always felt like myself, but in a litany of ***ways I never feel like myself. I feel like I’m referencing all of the masters who have come before me.

I don’t feel like I’ve arrived at something that’s individual yet, but that’s to say that I think that I’ll never feel that I’ve arrived at that place. I do recognize that there’s something that I can contribute that is still somewhat unique. I don’t know how it will materialize, but it’s a slow materialization.

IT’S LIKE THE APOSTLE PAUL SAYING “NOT THAT I’VE ARRIVED, BUT I PRESS FORWARD”

Yes, that’s beautiful.

DO YOU EVER GO OVER A GIG AFTERWARDS TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WENT RIGHT OR WRONG?

Definitely. I listen back.

I’m overly analytical, and I struggle with being too analytical. Oftentimes after a gig, I’ve already taken mental notes of everything that I want to work on, or that we need to work on as a band.

We talk a lot as a band about blockages that we may have, or things that we need to get better at.

We also listen back; Micah, the piano player, records every gig with voice memos, so he’ll send the voice memo to us after the show, and we’ll listen to it on the flight to the next gig.

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“when I think about touring and the life that we’re living now, I wouldn’t be able to do this if I didn’t love the people that I was touring with; they’re my family”

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DID YOU EVER GO THROUGH A “GEAR PHASE”?

Yes! Back in the day I went through a gear phase at middle and high school where I thought that the gear could make me sound like my favorite musician.

I also went through a gear phase for a second when I was briefly attempting to play soprano sax. During that phase I wanted to sound exactly like Branford Marsalis. I have no problem saying that I wanted to sound just like Branford.

I wanted to sound exactly like Branford, so I bought his exact setup.

Now, I’m in a pedals-gear phase; I’m checking out a bunch of the effects pedals. (laughs)

HOW DOES YOUR FAITH GUIDE YOUR LIFE AS WELL AS YOUR MUSICAL CAREER?

That’s beautiful.

My faith gives me a sense of purpose.

I do think that in order to find motivation and drive, to work hard and get better in this music, I think that you need to have an intrinsic value system. Having a spiritual practice is really central to having a drive to being a good human being and also to do something to the best of your ability.

The practice of honoring God, and see if I can break out of the normal matrix is what motivates me to practice

**I tell this all of the time to students, and I remember Wynton Marsalis telling me this when I was a student at Julliard:  One thing that I think that is important for people to know is that once you graduate college , there’s no one out there to checking you; there’s no one to tell you that you sound bad. (laughs)

Everyone’s telling you that you sound great. So, what drives you to be good cannot be based off of any sort of external value system. It can’t be based on “You sound great today” or “You sounded bad”, because it’s finicky and not rooted in anything

I’ve gotten bad critic reviews, and I’ve gotten great ones. We can’t put our stock in those things.

The only thing we can place our stock in is the actual intrinsic impetus to be better.

That’s how I think about my faith and music.

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“My faith gives me a sense of purpose”

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HOW DO YOU STAY GROUNDED WHEN YOU’RE ON THE ROAD?

Good question.

I’m a pretty chill guy.

I just try to take my moments, and stay sensitive to my body and needs

My first priority whenever I’m away is how I’m feeling. I’m really conscious of what I’m putting into my body, and taking moments to rest whenever I can, even if it’s on the plane. I’m making sure I’m sleeping well. I’m really serious about the fundamentals, even if it means that I’m not working out on the road as much as I’d want to be, or as productive, or reading as much.

Even if some things are faltering, I’m making sure that my core values of who I am are intact

DO YOU EVER LOOK FOR A LOCAL CHURCH WHEN ON THE ROAD?

I should be better about it.

When we were touring in Europe, oftentimes on a Sunday if I have a chance to take a walk, I’ll mosey into a service if I see one.

I want to tour more in the South because I want to mosey into some Southern Baptist churches.

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“I do think that in order to find motivation and drive, to work hard and get better in this music, I think that you need to have an intrinsic value system. Having a spiritual practice is really central to having a drive to being a good human being and also to do something to the best of your ability”

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WHEN YOU GO TO A CHURCH SERVICE CAN YOU NOT BE CRITICAL OF THE WORSHIP MUSIC AND TAKE IT IN SUBJECTIVELY?

(laughs) definitely!

It’s a way different experience to attend church than to be in the active practice of playing my instrument in church

I’m way more subjective, and I’m way more happy. The level of the music doesn’t affect me if I’m in the congregations, versus if I’m making the music. If I’m playing, I feel the level more acutely (laughs)

If I’m in the congregation, it doesn’t effect me, but if I’m playing, it takes me out of it.

HAVE YOU EVER HAD A SPIRITUAL CRISIS OF FAITH?

Not viscerally. Thank God

I’ve never had a time when I’ve seriously questioned things

Living in NYC as a musician, and a touring one at that, I encounter so many human beings on a daily basis, that my faith is always being challenged. At this point in my life I really welcome that challenge, and I’ve found really beautiful ways to relate to my faith as a Christian, having  interface with so many different people and different belief systems, and also interfacing with  people who are also coming from a place of love

That has taught me a lot about my life as a Christian

I haven’t had a real serious crisis where I have rethought my faith, but I’m often thinking really critically about what it means to be a Christian and what walking through life as a Christian looks like in 2026

I think that is what the profound beauty and beautiful contradictions sometimes of being a Christian in this world.

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“The practice of honoring God, and see if I can break out of the normal matrix is what motivates me to practice”

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WHAT CHRISTIAN BOOKS HAVE BEEN YOUR BEST GUIDES?

Micah Thomas put me on to this incredible cat Rowan Williams

I was working on a project for SFJAZZ in which I was thinking a piece that was the intersection between black studies, radical leftist studies and Christianity, the church and the practice of church-going. So I was reading a lot of radical theology, which is called “Abolitionist Theology”.
There’s this guy, J. Kameron Carter, who’s an incredible writer. He has a book called The Anarchy of Black Religion that’s amazing

There’s also an incredible talk that Hortense Spillers gave about Black Radical Theology that’s on YouTube.

In the past year or so I’ve been reading a lot in that realm

HAVE YOU EVER HAD A RECORDING OR PERFORMING GIG THAT WAS A “BAPTISM BY FIRE”?

Playing with Jason Moran for the first time!

I was instantly immersed and baptized! (laughs)

David Murray played with my band at SFJAZZ; that was another one. That was the same commissioned piece.

I’ve been baptized many times, and it’s mostly by my elders!

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“One thing that I think that is important for people to know is that once you graduate college , there’s no one out there to checking you; there’s no one to tell you that you sound bad”(laughs)

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IS THERE ANY MUSICIAN LIVING OR DEAD YOU’D PAY $1000 TO SEE PERFORM?

I’d pay $10,000 to see John Coltrane, maybe even more.

With Trane specifically, there’s something that’s inconceivable about the “aliveness” of the music. Seeing that in person-the fact that the albums still do so much and are so transformativeand hit you in such a visceral way, that I think that it’s inconceivable of what it’s like to be  in the room for that. And it’s so immersive that  if you’re in the room with him, there’s no escape. When it’s a record, you can rewind, and there’s an element of a distance from it.

What I would love about seeing John Coltrane is that I’d want to feel what it’s like to be in a room with other people, experiencing that thing.

WHO IN WORLD HISTORY WOULD YOU LIKE TO SIT DOWN WITH AN EVENING WITH AND PICK HIS OR HER BRAIN?

Can I talk to Jesus? If I could talk to Jesus, that would be great!
I was trying to avoid that one, as it was too obvious, but that would be amazing.

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“’you’ve got to like what you’re doing; you’ve got to like this stuff’. I think that was a very profound way of summing with up falling in love with the mundane”

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WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM STEVE WILSON AND JOE TEMPERLY WHEN YOU WERE IN SCHOOL?

I studied with Joe Temperly until he passed; the last two years of his life. Joe Temperly was really cool because for most of the lessons, he would just sing to me for half of the lesson. I learned so much that way about playing ballads and playing the horn through him sing these incredible melodies.

He used to sing “Smoke Gets In Your Eyes” often. He’d play in the lessons, too, and his sound was just incredible. I learned so much about sound from him, even to have belief in your sound

With Steve Wilson, he was a great teacher. We worked more on pedagogical saxophone technique, and that was really helpful. We’d do a lot of etudes; a lot of my technique got developed Steve Wilson.

I also studied a large part of my time with Bruce Williams at Julliard; I had also studied with him in high school.

He was a cutthroat teacher! I learned a pile from him about the horn, about the sound of alto players. He was big on Arthur Blythe, Gary Bartz and those cats.

A big part of what I attribute to the sound that I have, and where that is coming from is due to Bruce Williams.

WHAT’S THE BEST CAREER OR MUSICAL ADVICE THAT SOMEONE’S GIVEN YOU THAT YOU KEEP WITH YOU TODAY?

I got something from Kenny Washington, who I also studied from at Julliard for awhile.

Kenny told me that “you’ve got to like what you’re doing; you’ve got to like this stuff”. I think that was a very profound way of summing with up falling in love with the mundane.

We have to fall in love with what we’re doing every day, this regular work. The moment that it doesn’t anymore become this “fantastical thing”, that’s actually  when the real muscles start to build.

That’s something that I remind myself of daily. It’s been the most helpful thing for me in terms of real growth and foundational growth. The things that pay off are the things that no one else practices or wants to practice. The boring stuff where you think “why spend two hours on long tones when I could be learning this cool pattern?”

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“We have to fall in love with what we’re doing every day, this regular work. The moment that it doesn’t anymore become this “fantastical thing”, that’s actually  when the real muscles start to build”

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WHO HAVE YOU PLAYED WITH THAT HAD THE MOST INSPIRING MUSICAL MIND?

Tyshawn Sorey

We recently played a gig; he played with my band at this club in New York called The Pocket.

I’ve played with Tyshawn many times, and every time it’s been incredible and life changing.

But this was the first time I heard Tyshawn on my music

We didn’t do a rehearsal; he also missed the sound check.

My music is relatively difficult; it’s not crazy, but it’s difficult, and it requires some rehearsing.

Tyshawn came in and knew the music better than we did! He wasn’t reading it; he was able to play the stuff and play through the songs in a way that was so masterful and yet empathetic as well. It was deeply inspiring because he could genuinely execute and play the songs fundamentally better than I, Micha and Ryoma. All three of us on the stage, he was outclassing us on music that we had been playing for at least ten years.

(laughs) He’s an absolute genius.

WHAT ARE YO UR FUTURE GOALS?

My big goals are always to find more capacity to love and to care for people; have a bigger heart and try to create some great change out here in this world.

My goals are to have more discipline; the more I deepen my spiritual practice I deepen my musical practice. That’s kind of where my head is at.

I’m really trying to have more routine in my life and think about these things in a more intentional way.

WHAT GIVES YOU THE MOST JOY?

Playing ping pong.

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“My goals are to have more discipline; the more I deepen my spiritual practice I deepen my musical practice. That’s kind of where my head is at”

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YOU’RE THAT GOOD?

I’m okay. I play with my friend Adrial, and we are pretty good.

We play in Chinatown; we play with the old Chinese people who are really good, and we can hold our own. We lose most of the time, but we’ll be a challenge.

IF YOU WEREN’T A MUSICIAN, WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU’D DO?

When I was younger, I wanted to be a basketball player. I love basketball to this day.

I’d probably work in the arts, working in the visual arts.

I had a few favorite ballplayers. Allen Iverson was one. Chauncey Billups was my favorite for awhile. I really liked that Piston dynasty in the early 2000s with Ben Wallace, Rasheed Wallace, Tayshaun Prince and Rick Hamilton. That was really my main dynasty.

But I was a Sixers fan, so Allen Iverson was my guy. And now that LeBron James is on the Sixers, I’m really excited for the next two years.

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My big goals are always to find more capacity to love and to care for people; have a bigger heart and try to create some great change out here in this world

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WHAT DO YOU LIKE MOST ABOUT YOUR CAREER?

I like the collaborative element; I like being able to work with people in different disciplines, as well as with different musicians

It’s a great thing that what’s embedded into jazz music is community and working with people. But there’s also the interdisciplinary aspect has taught me a lot about the human condition and improvising, and just music as well. Being able to play with a dance company and write music with dancers, or write music with a chef. These aspects have taught me a lot about my work

 

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“Living in NYC as a musician, and a touring one at that, I encounter so many human beings on a daily basis, that my faith is always being challenged. At this point in my life I really welcome that challenge, and I’ve found really beautiful ways to relate to my faith as a Christian, having  interface with so many different people and different belief systems, and also interfacing with  people who are also coming from a place of love”

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SOMEONE ONCE ASKED THE SKEPTIC ROBERT BROWNING WHY HE WOULD GO HEAR THE FAMOUS BAPTIST  CHARLES SPURGEON PREACH ON SUNDAYS. HE FAMOUSLY REPLIED, “I DON’T GO BECAUSE I BELIEVE IT, BUT BECAUSE HE BELIEVES IT”. GO AND LISTEN TO IMMANUEL WILKINS IN CONCERTS, OR TAKE IN HIS ALBUMS, AND LISTEN TO FAITH ON FIRE.